Persians vs Goths

 Pottie


Gönderildi 18/08/2014 - 10:05
I have stumbled into this combination recently and after some testing of units, it seems to me that the Persians have no chance, except of course an early decision.

The obvious unit to counter the archer-immune huskarls are two-hand swordsmen or champions, but Persians can not create both, nor other strong infantry. Cavaliers or Paladins are no option, because the Goths can easily mix in cost-reduced pikes.

Persians also have no better Siege weapons, nor can I find an other significant advantage that could be exploited. Any idea how they have chance (assuming similar beginner-to-medium skilled players and open map)?
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 [INoV]CarlosFerdinand


Gönderildi 18/08/2014 - 10:27
crossbow + knight + monk in castle and hc + hussar in imp. You have a chance to win with your better eco than goths.
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 Pottie


Gönderildi 18/08/2014 - 10:40
I guess you propose crossbows against the pikes, which the Goths would cheaply pump against the knights. But wouldn't too much of their fire be pulled toward the archer-immune huskarls?

What is the role of the monks? Keeping the crossbows alive?

Are hussars effective against the huskarls?
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 [INoV]CarlosFerdinand


Düzenlendi18/08/2014 - 10:56 tarafından [INoV]CarlosFerdinand
Yes crossbows are units to counter pikes. 4 or 5 monks help to convert that many husks which will come handy vs his own pikes too. Knights are used to shield crossbows and kill huskarls left over. It boils down to how much the persian eco is better than goths.

And hussars match huskarls in 1v1 post-imp while letting your hcs do good damage.
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 Pottie


Gönderildi 18/08/2014 - 11:10
But how do you prevent that too much of the crossbow fire is drawn toward the immune huskarls instead of the vulnerable pikes?

The 25% cost reduced pikes would leave knights/hussars little chance if much of the crossbow fire goes toward the huskarls.

hc=heavy camel?
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 23RaidingParty


Düzenlendi18/08/2014 - 11:26 tarafından 23RaidingParty
how about mass knight + skirm spam
skirm cheap and not bad vs pikes
what do you think carlos?
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 Pottie


Gönderildi 18/08/2014 - 11:58
Skirms sound like a good idea. The crossbows can not be upgraded to arbalests anyway, making the existing gold-expensive units relatively ineffective when imperial.

But as the enemy would easily spam mixed pikes and huskarls, the main concern remains that half of the skirm/crossbow fire is wasted toward huskarls, so the pikes could continue their very cost-effective job versus the expensive cavalry.

On top of that, Persian eco advantage seems smaller than the Gothic cost reduction of infantry units.
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 [TheJedi]oompzinho


Gönderildi 18/08/2014 - 12:18
Crossbows and knights will beat huskarl and pike quite comfortably. If you are really struggling you can mix in some scorpions too. In imp hand cannoneers and bombard cannons with a meatshield of hussar or halb is very strong.
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 Pottie


Gönderildi 18/08/2014 - 12:49
If hand cannoneers with halbs really works imperial, how about using the rough equivalent (crossbows with pikes) earlier?

That would avoid the costs of using two gold units. Requires that pikes are at least somewhat useful against huskarls.
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 [TheJedi]oompzinho


Gönderildi 18/08/2014 - 12:53
Because hand cannoneers get a bonus vs infantry
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 [INoV]CarlosFerdinand


Düzenlendi18/08/2014 - 13:00 tarafından [INoV]CarlosFerdinand
Skirm + knight is much worse than xbow + knight. Don't go for it.

And knights and xbows need better eco to win vs huskarls and pikes in general. As I mentioned, take advantage of persian eco and the fact that goth will need a castle anyway. Further, to make huskarls in enough numbers he will probably need the anarchy which costs even more. Another tip is, incase you can control a hill, 2-3 mangonels work as great addition vs goth army along with your xbow/monk/knight army.

Army-wise pike+husks or halb+elite husks have an advantage over knight+xbow or hussar +hc.

Pikes + crossbows makes no sense in castle age vs husks because both lose very bad.
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 Pottie


Gönderildi 18/08/2014 - 13:26
And knights and xbows need better eco to win vs huskarls and pikes in general.

Which contradicts spmoo's hope they would win quite comfortably ;3confused

Better eco sounds hard, since the Persian eco bonus is only 15%, while the Goths infantry cost bonus is 25% which translates into 25% eco bonus under these circumstances...
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 [TheJedi]oompzinho


Gönderildi 18/08/2014 - 14:11
Goths confirmed unstoppable :O
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 Vaultboy


Gönderildi 18/08/2014 - 14:31
Seriously.. Noone mentions the obvious destroyer that pers has. Elite War Elephant? If CBA has taught us anything, post imp eles eat huskarls like their peanuts. No?
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 SaoceaN


Gönderildi 18/08/2014 - 14:40
Vaultboy wrote:
Seriously.. Noone mentions the obvious destroyer that pers has. Elite War Elephant? If CBA has taught us anything, post imp eles eat huskarls like their peanuts. No?

This is not CBA, you need a strong economy to pump full upgraded elephants, a smart player will send a group of Huskarls right away on a gap to get inside into your economy, once inside he will raid your economy and raze your TC's wich will freeze your resource's gathering and since it's an open map I doubt you will even have the time to pump Elite War Elephants anyway.


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